busking laws

topic posted Sun, February 19, 2006 - 3:21 AM by  Mr.Seal
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does anyone know were i can find the laws for busking in california
posted by:
Mr.Seal
California
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  • Re: busking laws

    Sun, February 19, 2006 - 9:07 AM
    Kyle, the law in CA varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Santa Monica is different than L.A. which is different from San Francisco. I have always followed the maxim that "it is beter to beg forgiveness than to ask permission."

    The worst thing is a cop came up and told me "we don't put up with panhandling here so move your a$$." I did what he suggested, set up on another busy corner that was across town and made $300. Same city, Different cops.

    Break a Leg and huge hats to you.

    Peter
    • Re: busking laws

      Mon, February 20, 2006 - 9:55 AM
      Actually, I've found that it's much better to find out the laws, and then (this is the important part) get the powers that be to print up a nice copy for you on government letterhead. Assuming that the laws allow you to busk, keep that copy in your case, and show it to cops when they start making up laws and trying to get rid of you. I have to do a lot of cop education, and I've found that they're quite reasonable when they see that you know what the law is.

      There's a huge number of laws that cops theoretically have to know, so it's understandable that they don't actually know all of them, particularly obscure ones related to busking. Never ask cops what's legal, since they just make stuff up. It's the folks at City Hall who know what the laws are.
      • Re: busking laws

        Mon, February 20, 2006 - 12:49 PM
        "get the powers that be to print up a nice copy for you on government letterhead"

        This can be difficult when a community has no laws against busking at all, and the cop goes on the "disturbing the peace" warpath. As for myself, I've never been shut down playing my accordion, except by a security guard at Pier 39 in SF, where I believed I was not on their property at all. Rather than hassle, I just moved. Too bad because the tips were good and I had a place to sit.
        • Re: busking laws

          Tue, February 21, 2006 - 8:20 AM
          Yeah, Ithaca NY doesn't have any laws against busking either, but just try telling a cop that. That's why I had City Hall print out a nice letter saying something along the lines of, "Musicians are allowed to play unamplified music on the Commons, and no permit is required. They're allowed to have an open instrument case in which people may place donations, but are not allowed to ask for donations." Something like that. City Hall was very nice about it. They said that they have to hand out a lot of these letters every spring when the buskers come out, because the cops somehow forget this over the winter, and have toe be reeducated every spring.

          I have a similar letter from the Parks Department of NYC. For the NYC subway, I printed out the rules from their website, and also have the rules brochure from the MTA. I've had to show them to cops a lot. It can take an hour or two to find a good busking spot in NYC, and when I do, I don't want some confused cop to come along and kick me out. I'm always perfectly polite about it, but I hold my ground if the law is on my side.

          I've spoken with other buskers in NYC who just pack up whenever a cop comes along and tells them to. That annoys me, because playing along with the cops' delusion leads them to believe that they have more power than they actually do. That makes things harder for all of us.
          • Re: busking laws

            Wed, February 22, 2006 - 9:28 PM
            well said
            • Re: busking laws

              Fri, March 3, 2006 - 8:13 PM
              I've had repeated situations with one cop who was always after me for "blocking the sidewalk". Well, I wasn't blocking the sidewalk, but my crowd was, and Officer was quite pointed in telling me that if anyone got hit ny a car, it was going to be my ass. I just refused to drop character and I drove him CRAZY, so he left me (mostly) alone after that, but I'm wondering how much of his schtick was ad-libbed. Anyone know if "attracting a crowd that blocks the sidewalk" is actually on the books?
              • Re: busking laws

                Sat, March 4, 2006 - 11:14 AM
                My understanding is -- at least in (parts of?) Washington State -- that you can "peaceably assemble" to protest or what have you, but if you're going to do so you actually have to have a protest-permit.

                I've seen a few too many folks -- as in more than 1 -- go off on my band where we busk downtown, stand in the street to take a picture of us, or other landmarks, whatever, that have gotten too close with cars.... but then I see folks who step out in to traffice on their own. While the performer may be considered a certain 'attractive nusiance' factor, I don't see myself as being responsible for every brainiac or bumpkin who's around -- I'm not & I can't be -- each person has to be responsible for themselves.... yeah, I know, this is an outlandish idea in America anymore (spill your coffee, it's McDonald's fault apparently). I think we try and do appropriate crowd controll -- I've even stopped my part of our music at times -- to open up the walkway (rarely a problem) and/or urge someone to get out of traffic.

                I don't think a cop could pin such stuff on anyone -- sure, you're interesting and hugely sexy because you're a busker -- BUT -- you are not *making* anyone stand in the street, you are not *making* anyone stop & listen to you, etc. They make their own choices.
                • Re: busking laws

                  Sat, March 4, 2006 - 11:21 AM
                  Yeah, this is what I tried to tell my unfriendly neighborhood cop. It got pretty ridiculous, actually. He kept threatening to write me a citation for being a "threat to public safety".
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: busking laws

                    Sat, March 4, 2006 - 11:23 AM
                    Dear Cop,

                    Look in a mirror.

                    Respectfully,
                    Your friendly neighborhood busker
                    • Re: busking laws

                      Sat, March 4, 2006 - 12:02 PM
                      I dont know what you act is, but it doesnt hurt to constantly keep people packed near you.
                      Usually this is your money tip the ones that are close.
                      You do want enough space for a baby stroller or wheelchair to get by. But on the other side of the sidewalk from your "stage".

                      There are a couple quips for this. "My local cops have a deal if I keep the sidewalk open, I can continue performing, so please leave a space for people to get by" that kind of thing.

                      This kind of interactivity usually can lead to tips if you can direct another remark to the traffic blocking individual. The people who do block traffic but cannot be roped into being part of the larger audience will not tip and a lot of those "satellites" are muttering hecklers, the scum of the earth. They are never content to actually participate in life, but boy do they have an opinion!!
                      Sometimes you have to qualify your audience jettison the flesh wasters and keep the tippers near you.

                      Of course none of this is helpful if you are a human statue.
                      • Re: busking laws

                        Sat, March 4, 2006 - 12:14 PM
                        "There are a couple quips for this. "My local cops have a deal if I keep the sidewalk open, I can continue performing, so please leave a space for people to get by" that kind of thing. This kind of interactivity usually can lead to tips if you can direct another remark to the traffic blocking individual."

                        I've seen this used effectively in SF, where the busker brings the crowd in tighter and the people on the periphery actually wind up participating as part of the audience. Sometimes people just want to be told to do something. (This may be why so many Americans vote for father figures in elections.)
                      • Re: busking laws

                        Sat, March 4, 2006 - 12:21 PM
                        And guess what I do! It's difficult to get stuff like that across to your audience when you're by necessity mute. I've tried signs, and caution tape at the edge of the road. That was funny, 'cause copper then decided that the caution tape was a hazard and wanted to cite me for THAT.
                        The thing that seemed to work best was just to annoy the cop in the most indirect and non-threatening way possible, but it was hard work that I didn't get paid for. Funny, tho. While officer was standing around glowering at me and avoiding eye contact, if I saw someone walk in the street I'd go and get them (in character) and introduce them to the cop and have him explain why it was my fault. Every time I saw him walk by I'd go running over to express my concerns about public safety and ask his help.... I used his name every chance I got, encouraged people to call the PD if they didn't think it was fair, and phoned his supervisor EVERY SINGLE TIME he hassled me. I had him pose for pictures with me, you name it. Worked pretty well, though, he's now terrified of me and pretty much ignores me. But I still don't know if he could legally cite me on those points.
              • Re: busking laws

                Sun, March 5, 2006 - 3:43 PM
                I vaguely remember something about freedom of assembly in my high school history classes, but there are plenty of laws on the books that prohibit it anyway. I think the ACLU is working on them one by one, but it's slow going. In NYC parks, it's technically illegal for me to have an audience of more than 20 people. I haven't seen cops busting buskers for that, though, possibly because they can't count that high while wearing shoes.

                Once, when I set up on the sidewalk, I got such a huge crowd, I have to admit that they really did block the sidewalk, making walking difficult for anyone who didn't want to hear my music, but just wanted to get by. A cop politely pointed this out to me, so I conceded his point, and moved. I mean, I'm all for freedom of assembly, but I'm also for politeness.

                On a related note, these days, it's illegal to hold a political protest without applying for a permit, and those permits are often denied. I recall that a few years ago, when protesters weren't allowed in Central Park, Billionaires for Bush gathered in the park instead, and publicised how nice it was that all that unsavory rabble was banned from the park so a few rich buddies of Bush could play croquet. Their croquet games had to consist of fewer than 20 billionaires each, though, since a gathering of more people than that is illegal without a permit.
                • Re: busking laws

                  Tue, March 7, 2006 - 12:24 PM
                  Remember that Robert Shields fought (and won) against the City & County of San Francisco, which charged him with miming without a license. He fought on First Amendment grounds.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: busking laws

                    Mon, March 27, 2006 - 9:55 AM
                    Yet the very place he performed is now controlled by the park and recreation department, and the per day permit for amplified performance is priced above the daily take of most circle acts. Ironic too, the SF Mime troupe successfully won the right to perform in any public park, free of charge around the same period. Yet the permit rumored to cost a grand a day is issued by the park and rec dept... meaning that Union Square is technically a public park. What a difference 30 years makes.

                    Sadly, the rights we keep are those we use frequently, or challenge small mindedness by asking 'Why not?'.
          • Re: busking laws

            Thu, August 6, 2009 - 9:15 PM
            Hi everyone, I hope someone will be able to help me!

            I am a musician, I was in NY two summers ago and I played on the street, mainly in washington square park, there were a lot of musicians and the atmosphere was laid back - I noticed a lot of small amplifiers.

            This summer I am in NYC with a guitarist but it seems as though the park has changed a bit, it's been "cleaned up" and I am not seeing any amplifiers!
            I heard that the cops are tougher on musicians and that you can be fined or go to jail if you don't have a permit to have even the smallest of amplifiers.
            It's frustrating because I hear music in the park that is not amplified but that is louder than mine ( ex. drums, saxophones, violins ).

            This is the problem..the permits seem to be very expensive and for one-time deals only; not for regular buskers.

            Is there a simple and economic solution to this problem that I don't know?
            Also,it's very hard to understand where to get the permit and how much it costs. Does anyone know?

            And lastly, does anyone know if the musicians that played in washington square park have all moved elsewhere in NYC because of this problem?
            INFINITE THANKS!!
            Hilary
    • Re: busking laws

      Tue, March 7, 2006 - 10:42 AM
      totally sounds like something I would do, they ask you to move so you walk 2 blocks and do it all over again...hehe
      • Re: busking laws

        Fri, March 24, 2006 - 12:48 PM
        In Chicago you must get a permit form the city to busk. It will cost you $50.
        Start you quest at City Hall room 107A
        Pack a Lunch it will take most of your day to get.

        If your going to Busk at fairs you maybe asked to show liability insurance.
        S.A.M covers me.
        • Re: busking laws

          Fri, March 24, 2006 - 5:50 PM
          who is S.A.M.?
          • Re: busking laws

            Sat, March 25, 2006 - 3:19 AM
            S.A.M. is a group similar to I.B.M.
            Society of Americam Magicians and International Brotherhood of Magicians.

            My liability is through I.B.M.
            • Re: busking laws

              Sat, March 25, 2006 - 6:39 AM
              The World Clown Association offers liability insurance available to members in good standing performing in the USA for the cost of only $125 per year.
              • Re: busking laws

                Sat, March 25, 2006 - 8:46 AM
                Clowns of the US provides liability insurance as well. Their prices are abit higher but they cover more.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: busking laws

                  Sun, March 26, 2006 - 1:50 PM
                  wow. i had no idea this was so complicated. i figured that once i got my city of vancouver license (which was a peach to get by the way) i'd have no problems... i got a list of rules and free spots to perform (my schtick is interpretive improvization of Danse Orientale. that's my story and i'm stickin' to it) one of the rules is to display license at all times (no prob) but yes, there is a stipulation about crowd control. it sounds like you are having as much trouble with the cop as i am having in trying to convince my husband that it is *safe* and not too *sensual* to dance for tips. He's absolutely incensed about it and i can't even bring the topic up even tho' i have done newspaper clip stories searches about 'belly dance' and 'busk' without seeing anything at all and the local 'media' policeman said he couldn't remember anything at all that had to do with a girl getting hurt while busking outside. he doesn't know yet that i got the license anyway :-0 i'll keep reading... this is very important to me and these notes are fantastic!! Yo Ahn Na
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: busking laws

                    Sun, March 26, 2006 - 2:39 PM
                    "He's absolutely incensed about it and i can't even bring the topic"

                    Well, consider the picture from your collection that you chose to put on your profile. Instead of a photo of you in costume, it's a nude photo. I can understand why he would get upset. How would you react if your husband posted a nude photo of himself here and people began sending him messages and friend invitations?

                    There is no doubt that belly dance is a sensual/sexual/seductive dance, whether people wish to admit to it or not. And while people in the crowd aren't going to seize and carry off a dancer, still, a partner of someone doing such a dance I believe, has reason to get upset.
                    • Re: busking laws

                      Sun, March 26, 2006 - 5:46 PM
                      David, I don't think it's okay for her partner to be "incensed" about her practicing her art in public. I would find that very stifling.

                      Your safety is of course an issue when street performing, no matter what you do. As the ONLY woman performer at Fisherman's Wharf for most of the season last year, the worst I usually got was an occasional lewd comment or invitation. Only twice have I had to break character and deal with someone who stepped over my boundaries. (Statue Comes To Life and Smacks Tourist! Story at eleven...) If you're dancing, it's unlikely anyone will come close enough to you to touch you or anything. You have a certain distance as a costumed performer, and most people will be a little intimidated by you, actually. Remember you're safer than usual when other people are watching you... nobody's going to do anything while you have a crowd of onlookers.
                      The rest of the time, it's the same rules as for every day; Park close by so you don't have a long walk through deserted parking lots while in costume, assess your weapons, Don't burden yourself with lots of things to carry... Maybe your husband would feel better if he picked you up after your day of busking was through. He'll probably come around once he sees you perform once or twice; unmolested by all those theoretical maniacs who can't control their lust at the sigh of a bare midriff.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: busking laws

                        Mon, March 27, 2006 - 1:07 AM
                        ooh! thanks so much! your note was a breath of fresh air! I'd like to hear more about your busking exploits... your photos are Fab! later, Yo Ahn Na <><
                      • Re: busking laws

                        Mon, March 27, 2006 - 2:54 AM
                        "David, I don't think it's okay for her partner to be "incensed" about her practicing her art in public. I would find that very stifling. "

                        The art of belly dancing is erotic art. Face it. This is why you seldom see male belly dancers (and for the most part only in America). Belly dancing is designed to tittilate straight men. Thus, a husband getting upset that his wife is belly dancing in public is a legitimate concern on his part.

                        My take on it is this: I see selfishness here on the part of the orignal poster. In relationships people must make compromises. They can't always do what they want; they must consider the other person. I've been in relationships with both women and men. I've experienced reactions to things I've done/wanted to do that didn't make me very happy, but I learned that for a relationship to work, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and make compromises.

                        I just don't think the guy is out of line.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: busking laws

                      Mon, March 27, 2006 - 12:49 AM
                      uh-oh! in trouble already and i haven't even gotten outside yet! if you click on the *teensy* photo, you'll see baggy red shorts and a cropped black t-shirt with pilling. way more than a bikini, got a bit of a chunky gut sticking out there, and, most importantly, knees together... i have some pictures in my page together with requests for comments about my costume, etc... the leg photo was actually included on my page asking if people thought whether I needed to wear baghdad pants to cover up what I think are less than perfect legs... i saw other people had nifty photos of something not entirely shown (eyeballs and stuff) and i didn't think the photos with my face were very good...
                      i haven't picked what kind of music i'll play, (i was thinking of something folksy /gypsy/ polka/ greek vine-step party---yelling Opa! and throwing around red and white checked tablecloths/ to start out with and maybe a tummy coverup that I haven't made yet...) i'm hoping to present as G-rated, family-approved fun. Since my card says ".... Improv..." I can edit out whatever moves I think are saucy, teasing, low-lidded, hands behind the head types of moves that i wouldn't even do if i were in a troupe. My teacher is very adamant about which moves are not appropriate for public audiences: no shaking one's cleavage about, make sure everyone who looks at you can tell right away that you are at least wearing shorts (boy-shorts, she said) under your costume on your butt, no taking tips anywhere !ANYWHERE! except at the highest furthest point of the hip where the belt sits, sensible side-slits on the skirts, no taking cheap dancing jobs at restaurants (ie charging less than the industry standards), no touching of money while performing (ask a friend to collect or maybe the staff at the restaurant,) no sitting with the customers after the show, no showing up at a gig without a large, bland coverup over top of the costume, and absolutely, under no circumstances at all, is a dancer ever, never, ever to agree to perform at a stag or for a men-only party.
                      *
                      There is no doubt that belly dance is a sensual/sexual/seductive dance, whether people wish to admit to it or not. And while people in the crowd aren't going to seize and carry off a dancer, still, a partner of someone doing such a dance I believe, has reason to get upset.
                      *
                      I would very much like to hear more about a dancer's partner being upset. Can you describe what is *too* much for a spouce to put up with? I have asked other people what they think about this busking buisness and most are perplexed as to why my husband is so against it, except possibly for him he feels that people will interprete me/my dance as "too sensual" and that the idea of dancing anywhere except in a troupe is out of the question.

                      Sorry to be so long-winded. I'll be watching for you. Yo Ahn Na <><
                      • hee hee!

                        Mon, March 27, 2006 - 4:33 AM
                        Opa! Opa!

                        Yikes...all those rules

                        Just use common sense

                        Women know exactly how much they are showing

                        I remember a few years ago, some women discovered men's briefs and it became all the rage.

                        I've videoed a bellydancer balancing a sword on her head...

                        Ha ha!

                        • Re: hee hee!

                          Mon, March 27, 2006 - 8:51 AM
                          "The art of belly dancing is erotic art. Face it. This is why you seldom see male belly dancers (and for the most part only in America). Belly dancing is designed to tittilate straight men. Thus, a husband getting upset that his wife is belly dancing in public is a legitimate concern on his part."

                          The reason you don't see male belly dancers is because belly dance was originally an exercise designed to make giving birth easier and safer. Men don't give birth, therefore it's a women's dance. It's not "designed" to titilate straight men; it's a DANCE. It's an ART. Yes, it can be erotic, but it doesn't have to be, and it sounds as if Yo has a very g-rated show and a modest costume in mind. You have to, if your going to perform for a mixed audience.
                          I hula hoop, and often men insist on seeing that as "erotic", too. Not everything that involves a woman moving her hips is "designed" to titillate you.
                          Sorry, but he's totally out of line. He's telling an artist that she can't practice her art. He's being selfish and unreasonable and is stifling her creative outlet.

                          Oh, and Yo, don't take tips in your costume when you're busking; it smacks of striptease. Put out a tip box, make sure it's visible, raise it up off the ground, decorate it, and put a nice sign that says "thank you" on it.

                          Just as an aside; I saw a girl come out to the pitch once dressed in stillettos and a gstring and pasties, set up a portable pole, and try pole dancing for tips. Not only was she not molested, nobody even looked at her; not to ogle, not to admire, and most importantly not to TIP, because they were so uncomfortable with such blatant and out of place eroticism. Not sure what my point is, but I think there's one in there somewhere.
                          • Re: hee hee!

                            Mon, March 27, 2006 - 10:22 AM
                            There's some validity to both sides here, but to frame things...
                            You're in Vancouver, BC. You're not working Venice Beach.

                            Granville's pretty mellow, and there's always people milling about.
                            It's not like you're going to be walking down alleys near Pike Market
                            in costume with a bunch of cash by yourself at midnight.

                            Considering where you're playing, I doubt you'll have much trouble.

                            However, to give your husband's side it's credit, when performing for a random public you get random elements.
                            Some people actively look for easy prey, and others are simply opportuists who see a chance and go for it...
                            It's an art to handle the unforseen deftly. How you handle a situation can save yer hide...

                            I think he's concerned for your safety, and is demonstrating his love for you through a desire to protect through limitation. I see it as an opporunity to apply the "teach a man to fish" meme. If you can defend yourself, there's less need for him to defend you. In that light take a buddy, a fellow dancer or a drummer, so you're not as vulnerable.

                            If the issue is really about the style of dance not the chosen venue of the street, it's a whole other ball of wax. If he's okay with you performing with a troupe, then I assume that's not the case. However, some cultures would look down upon belly dancing in the street, as it strikes a similarity to solicitation. In that way, it might be OK in a theatre, club, or restaurant, but not on a street pitch.

                            In all honesty, the belly dancers I know do better tips inside too.

                            If it's for the experience, I'd say to give it a go...
                            I wish you a quick edge and rousing cheers.
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: hee hee!

                              Mon, March 27, 2006 - 11:57 AM
                              You guys are great! All of you! Thank you so much for sharing all this with me. It's really an eye-opener. I'll be keeping up with this page and seeing how you all are doing. LOL Yo Ahn Na <><
                          • Re: hee hee!

                            Mon, March 27, 2006 - 2:45 PM
                            "Sorry, but he's totally out of line. He's telling an artist that she can't practice her art. He's being selfish and unreasonable and is stifling her creative outlet. "

                            Oh, all this "art is sacred' crap. Art performed/displayed in front of the public is a commodity like any other. There is nothing sacred about it. But what's happening here is that the original poster appears to be saying to hell with her relationship, she'll do as she pleases without taking her partner's feelings into consideration. I predict that if she continues to disregard his feelings she won't have a relationship for very long. Of course, then she'll be free to do as she pleases without worry. Not a bad solution, actually....




                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: hee hee!

                              Tue, March 28, 2006 - 4:08 PM
                              hmm... a friend of mine from Emily Carr Institute of Art + Design once advised me, "The worst critisism is no critisism at all." Yo <><
                            • Re: hee hee!

                              Wed, March 29, 2006 - 7:52 AM
                              "But what's happening here is that the original poster appears to be saying to hell with her relationship, she'll do as she pleases without taking her partner's feelings into consideration."

                              LOL seems like posts on almost any subject, on any board, always come down to "relationships," one way or the other.

                              I think there's validity to both sides as well, and there's no point in people getting so miffed about it. What does anyone care what happens between a poster and her or his partner? There's no point at guessing at the motivation of a person and insisting they are "selfish" or trying to deduct their moral code when you don't know them. And that goes for the poster AND her partner...tossing around blame is completely irrelevant to this. As for the original poster herself, it's not her concern to come here and explain her relationship to everyone...just because people decide to read into a brief comment she makes about a person I suspect none of us have met.

                              "selfish" aside, both people obviously have a side and stake in the relationship, whatever issues come up...so it would be nice if these posts didn't ALWAYS dissolve themselves into the infamous gender war...

                              so hard to resist...

                              *shrug*
                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: hee hee!

                                Wed, March 29, 2006 - 11:16 AM
                                Thank you, Erica. Love your photos...PUT MORE!!! Yo <><
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            Re: hee hee!

                            Mon, March 27, 2006 - 7:53 PM
                            fabulous advice! i just wanted to clarify, tips taken on the hip are from restaurant patrons having dinner at their tables. but still! something to consider thx! Yo <><
                        • This post was deleted by MT™
                          • Re: hee hee!

                            Thu, March 30, 2006 - 9:27 AM


                            Hey,
                            putting incense near your raised up and decorated tip box might be a real cool feature!
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: hee hee!

                              Thu, March 30, 2006 - 10:54 AM
                              I like that! I like it a lot! I love incense and essential oils but can only stand trace amounts. Outside would be great! Thanks! Yo <><

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